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Author	Topic: corn-ethanol E85 fuels found to have a higher environmentat impact than that of gasoline	Post a Reply Back to Topics

reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 6:05:21 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Study finds that environmental impact of corn-ethanol E85 is 23% to 33% higher than that of gasoline This was a study conducted by the University of Minnesota. Additional information on same study, different news source. "Where E85 is believed to be better as a fuel is in such aspects as potential ecological toxicity, effect on global warming and fossil energy consumption. Its outweighing drawbacks include land use, eutrophication, irrigation/water use and a much lower energy content per measured unit than gasoline, with the net result being, as mentioned, that pros are outweighed by cons. In short, the study concluded E85 simply shifts the environmental impact elsewhere, rather than actually reducing it" [Edited by: reb4 at 3/18/2012 6:07:38 PM EST]

reb4

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 6:05:21 PM

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Study finds that environmental impact of corn-ethanol E85 is 23% to 33% higher than that of gasoline

This was a study conducted by the University of Minnesota.

Additional information on same study, different news source.

"Where E85 is believed to be better as a fuel is in such aspects as potential ecological toxicity, effect on global warming and fossil energy consumption. Its outweighing drawbacks include land use, eutrophication, irrigation/water use and a much lower energy content per measured unit than gasoline, with the net result being, as mentioned, that pros are outweighed by cons.

In short, the study concluded E85 simply shifts the environmental impact elsewhere, rather than actually reducing it"

[Edited by: reb4 at 3/18/2012 6:07:38 PM EST]

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reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Apr 12, 2012 1:05:42 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Shockjock1961, so true...
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2012 8:48:38 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse krzysiek_ck, wow, I really do post in quite a few forums. thanks for the link...
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2012 8:03:23 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse Shockjock1961 wrote: "Wow, I guess when you are ethanol addict there is no gray areas. Either it is the cause of all problems of the world, or it has nothing at all to do with the problems of the world." Your spin, half truths, and lies only confirm that.
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2012 7:57:55 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse reb4 wrote: "Hey, I never said that, did I?" That is your bottom line message around here. Read this to learn more. [Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/26/2012 7:58:29 AM EST]
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 25, 2012 8:07:29 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "But hey, let's blame Ethanol for all the problems of the modern world" Wow, I guess when you are ethanol addict there is no gray areas. Either it is the cause of all problems of the world, or it has nothing at all to do with the problems of the world. Fortunately sane individuals can recognize that there are problems in this world in which ethanol contributes...
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 25, 2012 7:31:18 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse krzysiek_ck, "But hey, let's blame Ethanol for all the problems of the modern world." Hey, I never said that, did I?
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 24, 2012 11:21:47 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse "The dead zone is caused by nutrient enrichment from the Mississippi River, particularly nitrogen and phosphorous...Nitrogen and phosphorous enter the river through upstream runoff of fertilizers, soil erosion, animal wastes, and sewage." The Gulf of Mexico Dead Zone Looks like animals and humans are also responsible for the dead zone, not only fertilizers. But hey, let's blame Ethanol for all the problems of the modern world.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 24, 2012 8:31:36 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Dead Zone in Gulf of Mexico - size of New Jersey lasts for months... Note this occurred prior to BP oil spill. More information - maybe this explains it better for some. THis was taking place prior to BP Oil Spill Many industries abuse natuaral resources. Read that cost associated with cleanup of oil spill cost BP over 7 Billion. How much money has been speant cleaning up after the toxic dumping in water supply from fertilizer and insecticides? [Edited by: reb4 at 3/24/2012 8:40:44 AM EST]
Banjoe Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:4,268 Points:616,215 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 24, 2012 7:34:53 AM Ignore Banjoe Report Abuse This topic has been especially informative thanks to the efforts of some fine research work. Thanks all for giving me lots to read and think about.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,569 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 24, 2012 1:54:09 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse You know I wouldn't be surprised if this so-called study by the University of Minnesota has been funded by oil money. We need to have Jesse look into the matter. OH my, clean gasoline, who do they think they are kidding?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2012 8:48:04 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse goldseeker...I hear ya'! Can't wait to see The Big Fix April 21st. We'll get you a copy.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,569 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2012 1:36:16 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Gamechanger: I apologize for I did not have all the episodes lined up properly. The entire episode This theory may sound far fetched by many, however, when it comes to government and big business nothing is too far fetched. EPA approved dispersants?????? I could care less. I have no faith in the EPA, FDA, and other government agencies. Look they are suppose to be there to protect the consumer. Instead they are looking out for corporate interests. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the EPA and FDA has been in bed with big business for decades. Even officials in high places in these agencies are actually receiving kick backs from big business. Americans need to start thinking "outside the box". Once you do, you will be very surprised, and mad!
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,569 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2012 1:22:55 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse BP toxic cleanup part 5.
timmyC4 Veteran Author Twin Cities Posts:417 Points:60,600 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2012 12:10:03 PM Ignore timmyC4 Report Abuse Not good stuff. And Obama tries to take credit for a pipeline that's already been approved. Typical.
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2012 12:03:39 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse goldseeker....that is really interesting. When can we see the rest of it?
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,569 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2012 5:45:12 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse The environemental impact of clean gasoline, you can be the judge. Part one of a 5 part series.
Banjoe Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:4,268 Points:616,215 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 1:18:20 PM Ignore Banjoe Report Abuse More studies that provide clear indication of whatever the funding body is looking for so none of this stuff is ground breaking or even mildly interesting unless you're trying to support some agenda. Voodoo science is good for Nobel prizes and support funding but does nothing to help out the rest of us. With all the disasters occuring all around us, it's a good thing it's the end of days....at least if you're a Mayan. The rest of us? Maybe not so much. Still, we can live with the happy thought that none of us are getting out alive.
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 1:08:53 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse One more! America's Fuel Choice
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 1:07:15 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Another link for you to check out. The Big Fix
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 1:03:28 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Lerxst17....scroll down and check out "Goldseekers" link on the Alberta Tar Sounds. The pictures speak volumes. It's a fact that the damage being done is catastrophic. Plus I wouldn't be eating any seafood from the Gulf anytime soon thanks to BP Bps oil entered food chain [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 3/22/2012 1:05:53 PM EST]
jacksfan Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,554 Points:1,238,830 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 1:00:58 PM Ignore jacksfan Report Abuse As has been amply pointed out, Lerxst17, the "facts" in reb4's original post are few and far between.
Lerxst17 Champion Author Dallas Posts:1,040 Points:399,850 Joined:Feb 2012	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 11:52:32 AM Ignore Lerxst17 Report Abuse This doesn't surprise me in the least. The types that are pushing ethanol, however, can't be convince that facts, contrary to their belief system exist.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 11:22:40 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "When the IC engine is re-redesigned back to run on alcohol alone, as has been done in Brazil since the early 1980s, they will get up to 22% more miles per gallon Hmmmm... One problem, there are no vehicle's like this in the US. Kind of puts a crimp in your arguments, since Ukr Bama is talking about the here and now, while you speculate on what "could" but probably won't be... Remember that Flexible fuel bill you keep pushing? [Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 3/22/2012 11:24:12 AM EST]
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 11:09:01 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Ukr Bama...plus...."In fact, running your car on alcohol actually makes the engine last longer. You could probably get two to three times the engine life if you run your car on alcohol instead of gasoline. This is because running the internal combustion engine on alcohol produces no carbon soot which is one of the major causes of engine wear and tear. Studies have shown that cars and trucks in Brazil and the U.K. that used only alcohol lasted almost three times as long as their gasoline and diesel counterparts." *In the same link that I provided to you.
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 11:03:37 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Ukr Bama....where are you getting your facts. We list links on this site to back up claims. "You may lose up to 12% miles per gallon (or 12% less km per liter) when you use 100% alcohol in your fuel tank. That's because the modern internal combustion engine has been co-opted by Big Oil to run on this toxic junk called “gasoline” which has a range of burning points, not a single burning point like alcohol. When the IC engine is re-redesigned back to run on alcohol alone, as has been done in Brazil since the early 1980s, they will get up to 22% more miles per gallon (or 22% more km per liter." *Note that number is with 100% ethanol or E100. 3 big myths about alcohol [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 3/22/2012 11:07:41 AM EST]
Ukr_Bama Rookie Author Alabama Posts:7 Points:118,715 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 10:59:56 AM Ignore Ukr_Bama Report Abuse Chemically, it is MORE polluting to introduce oxygenated compounds such as C2H5OH (ethanol) into gasoline. No engine is 100% efficient in converting either the isooctane in gasoline or the ethanol and other additives to carbon dioxide and water. There are sulfur and other impurities in all crude oil, and no amount of refining removes them all. Therefore, the impurities react during combustion with the oxygenated compounds, increasing the amount of acid gas (SO2, SO3, NO2, etc.) in the exhaust. The catalytic converters remove most of it, but not all. Adding ethanol makes the problem worse, not better. Ethanol also gives only about 60% of the energy output of regular gasoline; therefore, a gallon of E10 represents about a 10% drop in fuel efficiency. Based on costs in our area, it is more economical to buy 100% gasoline from our lone distributor at 12 cents/gal extra, because the increased efficiency more than offsets the price differential.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 9:48:27 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "It truly is DIRTY energy" Since ethanol requires the use of this dirty energy as well as producing it's own additional environmental hazards during production, would it not also be considered "dirty energy"?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 9:25:52 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse goldseeker...I just watched the video. I found it very disturbing. We are paying way too high off a price because of or addiction to oil. I wonder how long it's going to take everyone to get. It truly is DIRTY energy. I'm reposting this. [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 3/22/2012 9:28:13 AM EST]
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,569 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2012 6:52:38 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Clean gasoline, watch this video and you be the judge. Remember the US is getting over 1 million barrels per day of this wonderful clean oil. [Edited by: goldseeker at 3/22/2012 6:55:51 AM EST]
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 8:05:10 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse gamechanger2011, thanks for the link. this guy is pretty good. Holds no punches on issues. read a few of his links... Thanks...
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 7:55:47 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse "So simply put, you cannot list all the federal corn based ethanol subsidies. That is what I thought." krzysiek_ck, glad to see youre thinking... .... almost going to ask another question, but don't want to be accused of changing the subject... Have a nice day though...
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 2:33:48 PM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse reb4 wrote: "krzysiek_ck, did I list the links as only corn ethanol subsidies? Let me answer that for you... NO! The links are for Ethanol sunbsidies, you can go through and find the ones that pertain to corn ethanol subsidies. I thought you wanted the list for a specific reason... I never indicated that the links had only subsidies for corn ethanol... Have a nice day" So simply put, you cannot list all the federal corn based ethanol subsidies. That is what I thought.
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 1:03:10 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse BP's oil spill entered food chain [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 3/21/2012 1:03:49 PM EST]
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 11:40:42 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse "reb4 and Shockjock1961, What part of this sentence did you have problems understand?" krzysiek_ck, did I list the links as only corn ethanol subsidies? Let me answer that for you... NO! The links are for Ethanol sunbsidies, you can go through and find the ones that pertain to corn ethanol subsidies. I thought you wanted the list for a specific reason... I never indicated that the links had only subsidies for corn ethanol... Have a nice day [Edited by: reb4 at 3/21/2012 11:42:09 AM EST]
jacksfan Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,554 Points:1,238,830 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 10:07:40 AM Ignore jacksfan Report Abuse Perspective: the amount of subsidies the ethanol industry receives pales in comparison to the subsidies shocky and his industry receive. Wonder how much time and energy shocky spends decrying his subsidies? One can only assume he favors eliminating ethanol subsidies so there's more money in the pot for him. BTW, shocky, what's the topic of this thread? Why don't you preach to us again about keeping posts on topic. Obviously, you need a reminder.
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 9:49:47 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse reb4 and Shockjock1961, What part of this sentence did you have problems understand? "Please list all the corn based ethanol subsidies." Yes, reb4, I have read the USDE Federal Incentives and Laws page. Most, if not all, Ethanol subsidies have this written in the description. "Note: This incentive expired December 31, 2011, but will remain posted until the federal tax filing deadline." Then we have hydrogen, biomass, fuel cell, school bus, transportation, cellulosic, idle reduction devices, plug-in electric tax credits and tax exemptions. These have nothing to do with the corn based ethanol subsidies. So pay attention to this question and if possible try to answer it. Can you list all the federal corn based ethanol subsidies? [Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/21/2012 9:53:26 AM EST]
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 8:53:18 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse Cellulosic Biofuel Producer Tax Credit The "great" thing about this potentially huge subsidy is that even with it, they can't produce fuel in appreciable quantities economically....
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2012 8:49:06 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Link to subsidies and incentives from Federal level. Link for same to find individual state information. If you really are interested krzysiek_ck, have a nice time reading...
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 10:03:27 PM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse Shockjock1961 wrote: "One ethanol subsidy ended, definitely not all of them..." Please list all the corn based ethanol subsidies.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 9:24:15 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Ethanol subsidies ended this year" One ethanol subsidy ended, definitely not all of them... "Corn based ethanol is why we are making more and more flex fuel vehicles" Actually the reason that Ford and GM make FFV's is so they can simply bypass the C.A.F.E. rules and not have to pay the gas guzzler tax...
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 8:03:58 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse amgine...please check this outAmerica's Fuel Choice/Open Fuel Standard Act It's 28 minutes long, but well worth everyone's time! [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 3/20/2012 8:04:57 PM EST]
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 8:00:38 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse amgine....do you feel the same about oil subsidies? Ethanol subsidies ended this year. Check out this link Obama target $4,000,000,000 a year oil industry subsidies. Corn based ethanol has allowed us to build an infrastructure so that when cellulosic or second generation ethanols area available....then we can actually use them. Corn based ethanol is why we are making more and more flex fuel vehicles, developing blender pumps, etc. To wait until we have cellulosic ethanol before we build the infrastructure for it is, "putting the cart before the horse".
amgine Rookie Author Houston Posts:58 Points:293,340 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 6:19:37 PM Ignore amgine Report Abuse While you can debate the two, corn-based ethanol is not as environmentally effective as plant-derived ethanol, and until you end subsidies and eliminate the incentive for large corporations to lobby for corn based ethanol, you will continue to have a higher impact on the environment than is necessary. That should be the focus, not on getting caught up on how bad tar-sands oil is, corn-based ethanol uses petroleum byproducts, so you still need those tar-sands petroleum if that is your argument!
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,569 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 2:58:14 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse This study is obviously biased. They cherry pick a worst case scenario for corn and take a best case for gasoline. There is no mention or comparison to Tar Sands gasoline. That is a inaccurate and misleading and I can assure you that almost anything is cleaner than tar sands oil. Furthermore, the fact that they used data from 2005 is ridiculous, as most of the recent energy efficiency developments in the ethanol industry have occurred in the last 3-4 years. There is simply no comparison in my mind to almost any alternative fuel to petroleum, as the true cost is never taken into account for both environmental and financial concerns with wars, convoy attacks and our military's continued protection of oil shipping lanes around the world. This so-called study reminds me of the Pimental study, that does not provide all the facts, but instead comes up with the result first and then assembles the so-called facts to support the result. The assumption is made that corn would not be grown (or any other agricultural activity would take place) if the the ethanol were not being made. But, farmers farm. The presenters of this work would have to tell me that they are only considering the additional corn being grown because now there is a market for more corn, and more land is being farmed than previously, and that the corn specifically grown for ethanol is somehow more impactful than corn grown simply for feed (or other crops). I however know that is not the case for most corn and most farms. For the most part corn is grown for animal feed, and some is converted to ethanol and the protein part, after having the sugars produce ethanol, is sent for animal feed. I assume this was a hatchet job by someone hired to do so. Look, corn acres were at 93 million last year. They might reach 94 million this year. Clear back in the 30s there was over 100 million acres. Corn or some other crop can and will be grown on this land. Now lets look at the tar sands......They are currently mining tar sands on a chunk of land about the size of Florida, which totals about 45 million acres....And they will soon be mining additional lands in Saskatchewan which will add millions of additional acres. A once great forest is gone and will never be again. Plus the air and water is fouled and additional clean sources of cheap natural gas is being wasted on the project. Some day they hope to reclaim the land and plant grass and make it into a park....but no forest. Can you imagine???? Let's bulldoze Yellowstone and Yosemite, remove all fossil fuels, and then plant it in grass! If you still think that growing corn is sooooo bad, then I suggest you get climb down out of your ivory tower and take a drive up to Alberta. While you are at it, you will drive by thousands of acres of productive farm land. When you arrive in Alberta you will find a vast lunar landscape totally devoid of vegetation. Ohhh, while you are at it carry a gas mask, you will need it! Sorry, but it might bust your $1000 driving budget.
jacksfan Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,554 Points:1,238,830 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 2:19:06 PM Ignore jacksfan Report Abuse Clueless quoting clueless, Example 2 (or is that 2,002?): "98 percent of Iowa’s arable fields are tiled" Not even close. The facts: "Government statistics show just over 30 million acres are devoted to farming in Iowa." "ISU Extension estimates a little more than 9 million acres of row crops are tiled in Iowa." Gee, why would anyone question the "information" in that article?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 12:46:07 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse I just posted a video about The Open Fuel Standard Act....they are not pro ethanol...they are pro alternative energy. they still say that ethanol is a good solution for now.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 12:43:40 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse tropicalcamm, I don't expect you to pay anything. "Clueless quoting clueless doesn’t make for factual. " Nor does quoting from ethanol experts make things facys. But feel free to support your findings to the crowd...
tropicalmn Sophomore Author Minnesota Posts:173 Points:146,135 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 12:16:19 PM Ignore tropicalmn Report Abuse Clueless quoting clueless doesn’t make for factual. “This is aggravated by systems of subterranean tiles and drains — 98 percent of Iowa’s arable fields are tiled — that accelerate field drainage into ditches and local watersheds. As a result, loadings of nitrogen and phosphorus into the Mississippi and the Gulf of Mexico encourage algae growth” Phosphorus can travel to surface water attached to particles of soil or manure. Phosphorous also can dissolve into runoff water as it passes over the surface of the field. Leaching of phosphorus usually is not a significant concern. Soil particles strip soluble phosphorus from the water as it leaches through the soil profile. The concentration of phosphorus in soil leachate is significantly less than surface runoff concentrations.. Phosphorus, turbidity, and most chemical pollutants in water are dramatically reduced when farm field tile is installed if tiling is done without using tile inlets. Farm field tile drainage allows for more rain water to soak into the soil rather than run off over the surface. As far as the original topic you expect us to pay $35.00 to read about history?It was based on 2005!
timmyC4 Veteran Author Twin Cities Posts:417 Points:60,600 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 10:09:00 AM Ignore timmyC4 Report Abuse Yep. That's why I say it has to be significantly cheaper than gasoline, like 50% before I'll use it. Stuff is crap.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,133 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 8:43:08 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse krzysiek_ck, I am not advertising... so how can i quit. goldseeker, it is not an old article... "Resources • Yi Yang, Junghan Bae, Junbeum Kim, and Sangwon Suh (2012) Replacing Gasoline with Corn Ethanol Results in Significant Environmental Problem-Shifting. Environmental Science & Technology doi"